“I just want us to be friends again,” -- Iraqi man, Interview with Coloradoans in Iraq

Interview by Janaki LeFils with Elias Amidon and Elizabeth Roberts in their first phone interview from Iraq. 

Recorded 11/15/02, aired on KGNU 11/21/02.

JL: Elias and Elizabeth have been in Boulder since 1989. For nearly a decade they taught Environmental Leadership at Naropa University. As
founders of the Boulder Institute for Nature and the Human Spirit, they have traveled extensively in Asia, the Middle East and Europe, teaching
values and environmental protection. Elizabeth and Elias are living in Baghdad. In the event of a bombing and a full-scale attack on Iraq, 
they have no plans to leave. They want to stay and publicize the effect of the war, and to stand in solidarity with Iraqi civilians. Elizabeth

begins by describing what she has been doing on a daily basis.  

ER: I finally found my little work project here. I’m spending an hour a day at an orphanage run by the Sisters of Charity of Mother Teresa for
severely disabled children. It has completely turned my experience around, from being one that was a little difficult, to being absolutely in love

 with the place. I just go and get this loving medicine from these kids...who mostly can’t talk or walk or anything. Every day I get this dose of it, 

and I can’t believe how good it makes me feel. 

We’re also having a lot of fun in the way Elias and I do when we’re not arguing...laughing a lot. He’s become quite adventuresome. We’ve both
finally broken away from the group... in addition to having to learn the culture and the city, and waiting for war, we’re having to learn to work
with a group of people who are new to us. So that had its own learning curve. In the beginning you think it isn’t going to work at all, and 
now you sort of love each other. It’s a lot of very experienced peace activists... people who have been in front of tanks in Hebron, and on
the front lines in a number of places. 

I want to begin by talking about what the people here are like. For us, the most obvious thing is the surprising lack of preparation...that you
can see. There’s no particular military presence; there’s the occasional soldier in front of a ministry building or something, but there’s not
any build-up of military. There haven’t been any bomb shelters being built. What I understand from the people I talk with is that there was 
a bomb shelter in the 1991 war called A Maria that had about 500 women and children in it – Elias says there were a thousand -- and it was 

bombed.   

We weren’t supposed to be bombing civilian targets, and our “smart bombs”...they put everyone in there, and 450 were killed. So nobody is
doing much here to build bomb shelters. 

I think people are psychologically trying to prepare for it. I’ve been to a couple of families and they’re thinking about it, but I’m not
seeing any physical preparation at all. One of the families I visited had put in a couple extra liters of kerosene and buried a couple liters
of gasoline out in the yard, so that they could maybe leave Baghdad if the bombing got bad here. It’s a strange feeling. You read about it, we
hear about it on the computer, etc. It’s sort of inexorably moving closer and closer to first the bombing, and then possibly a ground war. 

People were given an extra month’s food... they were given November and December’s food allotment from the food and oil program. They were 
given an extra month’s food, which they were told to store and put away, but most of them ate it, or sold it because they needed cash. So if there 
is a war, the people here will be hungry. There’s no extra food tucked away.

We went to a school, and what they’re doing when the flag goes up is they’re shooting bullets so the kids get used to explosions over their
head, because there will, of course, be many tons of explosives going off over their heads when the bombing starts. They’re trying to help 
the kids in this particular school.

The way we notice the war is that they’re sensitive about visas...who can stay. We hear frequently about a journalist who just got a 10-day
visa, then was asked to leave. That’s still going on. You can’t tell how likely you are to get your visa renewed. So right now we’ve been told
there are very few reporters over here, and everybody’s trying to reach anybody they can to get some information.

JL: How long are your visas?

ER: Our visas are due on Saturday. We’ve been assured by the department of foreign affairs that we’ll get a renewal on our visas. We meet with
someone from foreign affairs regularly to talk over what’s happening, what we’re doing. They are keeping tabs on us, for sure. I have a hard
time getting upset about it because when you think about it, their country is about to be attacked by my country. I’m from the invader country, so the

 fact that they’re treating us as well as they are is a little startling. I want to comment on the fact that we’re being treated, really, reasonably well, having our desires of what to see and
where to go very much taken into account. We’ve had a lot of interviews.

JL: I was curious about Kathy Kelly’s idea of bringing in hundreds of Americans to witness Iraq before and during the war. That’s probably 
not going to be able to happen.

ER: I don’t think it’s going to be able to happen, but she hasn’t given it up. I am very impressed with her determination. It was slowed down
due to a glitch with the first people who came in. But now the people I’ve talked to from Iraq say that it is possible for more and more to
come in. They’re particularly interested in, and would really expedite the process, make it very easy for anyone like university professors, 
or influential people, people who have networks. They’re very pleased that Elias and I have such an extensive network of contacts. They want 
people who are going to reach more people. I asked if they would give more visas, and they said, “We would make it very easy for them to come in.”
So that’s a call to anyone who wants to come, wants to listen and see for themselves what’s happening over here, and spread the word back.
They really understand that it’s in their interest to have that happen.

JL: Elias wants people to know that not only does he feel safe in Baghdad, but in fact he feels very welcomed by the Iraqi people. 

EA: First of all, a lot of people back there feel that Iraq and Baghdad...that it’s a scary place. It seems like it’s the land of  Mordor over here. I would like to give a sense of how we feel safe or not 
here. We do feel safe. Actually, Baghdad is not scary at all. We were cautioned to be careful, go in twos late at night. So it’s no different
from downtown Denver or New York. People are extraordinarily friendly. What we’ve experienced in other Arab countries is just as alive and 
well here: the proverbial Arab hospitality, generosity, kindness. When they ask you where you’re from, and you say “America,” they say, “Most
welcome, most welcome.” That’s always what they say. You could imagine if someone says, “I’m from Iraq” in the States, I don’t think that 
would be our response. There might be suspicion and funny looks.

The other evening I was walking down the road outside and I did come upon a soldier who was standing there in a busy intersection. I said
“A’salaam alleikum,” peace be with you, and he said “Alleikum  a’salaam,” and peace be to you. We both went toward each other, nodded, 

and shook hands warmly. I don’t feel afraid... none of us feel afraid here. 

The question for us that is very much up is, what is OK for us to do and not to do, and who to talk with. We have to learn some restraint. We’re
not roaming freely and asking everyone what their opinions are about the government, or something. That wouldn’t be fair to people. But 
generally to ask questions about people’s feelings about the coming war, or are they afraid... my sense is that the people here are overwhelmingly 
tired of wars. They’re tired of sanctions. They’re tired of poverty. They  just want to get it over with and be friends again. They really do. I spoke
with a man today in one part of the city who said exactly that. “I just want us to be friends again,” he said in broken English. It was very,
very touching.

In terms of our safety, if a war does start, we all talk about that a lot. Nobody knows how to answer that question... what will happen? What
will happen to foreigners? Will they ship us out to the border? Very likely that would happen, most people say. Or they’d isolate us either
in a hotel or a refugee camp. But who knows. There’s so much chaos that goes on, none of us want to put anybody in harm’s way. We don’t want to
make other people vulnerable who would try to protect us, or get us into safe places. We don’t want to be trouble for people... that’s not the
point of being here.  

JL: I’m curious as to what most people’s response has been to Saddam Hussein allowing the inspections.

EA: My sense is that they’re all relieved... there was a noticeable sigh of relief here... ‘Ahhh...’ There’s the Iraqi pride... that’s clear. 
The parliament had to make a lot of noise, and denounce the intentions of it all, but it was a bit of drama, what they did. That was orchestrated.
But those I spoke to had an atmosphere of relief.

JL: Is there still a lot of distrust about the fact that this might prevent a war? Do they still expect the US and Britain to come into the  country?

EA: That’s divided. There are some people, notably a lot of ex-pats, foreigners, journalists, who are convinced. Several Iraqis have
absolutely no trust that the US and UK would hold back. They’ll use any excuse, according to these people, for a trigger, an excuse to come in.
Because their point, these people say, is that the US and UK are not interested, really, in eradicating weapons of mass destruction. It’s
really to dominate the region, the oil supplies and to be able to control where the oil profits go, so they get turned back into the
western economies. It was interesting, someone gave a lengthy economic analysis of it all, which was quite convincing. In any case, there are 
a sizeable portion of the Iraqis whom I talked to who do feel...they’re hoping that this means that the two governments, everyone involved, 
will work it out without going to war. They’ve seen it up close, and they don’t want any more. 

That’s what I really would like say. The conditions here for the  people, in the city and in the countryside that we’ve seen, are predominantly
marked by exhaustion. They’re exhausted, the place is exhausted, it’s poor. This country was on the verge of having first-world status back 
in 1989-1990, what with all the oil revenues, and fairly enlightened policies...social policies... by the government. Very low infant
mortality, very good nutritional figures, high level of education, health care was free and available for all. Amazing! Much more,
actually, than the US.  

As a direct result of sanctions...what has it been, eleven or twelve years... that’s changed dramatically. There was a plummet...a collapse
of the whole system. Both Rabia and I knew something about the sanctions, and they didn’t seem like a good idea, because they punished
the wrong people. Before we came here we had read about it. But seeing it firsthand, I tell you, it’s tragic, it’s shocking, it’s overwhelming.
It’s right there. You see who gets hit, and it’s people. It’s people like you and me now living in third-world conditions. We went to a souk,
a bazaar here, and there was a bookseller who was an ex-professor who can’t get a job anymore, and they’re there selling their TVs or old
textbooks. They speak fluent English, so you can communicate very well with them. It’s tragic...it’s really, really sad across the board.

ER: There were some very wise social programs in the late ‘80’s... but it wasn’t as if people didn’t suffer under the government. There were
certain privileges they didn’t have and certain liberties they certainly didn’t have. But because of that, I was surprised at the degree to 
which the oil well was used to raise the status of the people of this country.  In some way, it’s more difficult to go from being a first-world 
country, with all the technology and industry, down to a third-world country than it is to simply remain a third-world country. I would say it’s really a
sight to see; it’s a unique kind of poverty.

EA: Sanctions... I suppose this topic is not the first concern on people’s minds...it’s concern of the threat of war, etc. But I have to
say that it’s right up front for us. The West’s constant hammering away at wanting to eradicate this dangerous threat of weapons of mass
destruction from Iraq belies the fact that sanctions themselves are weapons of mass destruction...absolutely without a doubt. What is it
other than a weapon of mass destruction when, for instance, a million and a half children and adults are not alive now, who would be if the
sanctions weren’t in place. That is how the former head of the UN representatives here for humanitarian relief, who quit, put it... that
this is the definition of genocide. 

What justification is there for doing that? How can we justify that? The UN statistics on malnutrition for children under five are horrible. In 
a year 2000 report, 50% of all children under five were malnourished. 10% of those were stunted. Another 20% were “wasted”...different terms for
these types of malnutrition. And you see it. We’ve been outside of the city several times. Baghdad is the capital, but when you go out of the
city, especially towards the south, you see incredible poverty. Everything you could imagine, and worse. It’s abject poverty. I am
shocked that this is the country that the West, and my country particularly, feels is the greatest threat to world peace. This is a
suffering, exhausted, ruined land. And it needs help and friendship,  and all kinds of things that we could give. If we’re truly interested... if
I could only talk to our officials and our president. If we were truly interested in increasing our security as a nation, we would extend our
hand in friendship to these people, and help them! That’s what would create friendship and security for our people.

Coming in here with our vast military might is only going to create more suspicion, distrust, anger, and resentment, and it will only build up
the possibility for violence in the coming decades. 

--end--